Error or not?

[brentwalker]

A player on my sons HS team does not agree with the error I assigned to him nor does his private coach.

Scenario: Center fielder is tracking a line drive batted ball and decides to make a diving attempt to catch the ball. The CF misses the ball and it rolls to the fence.

I scored it as a single with error on CF. In my judgement, had he fielded the ball normally he would have fielded the ball on the first bow ce and no runner would have advanced any farther than a single base. But the runner on second scored and the runner on first made ot to third and the batter-runner made it to second.

The HS player contends that giving him the error, it discourages the fielder from making extra-ordinary plays/effort in order to retire the batter. He further contends that if he tried to cutoff a ball and did not make it but the ball rolled tom the fence, would that also be an error? To which I said it depends. Could another player have made the play with ordinary effort?

I believe the rule is pretty clear in that his misplay allowed the runners to advance passed the value of the hit and those bases need to be accounted for statistically.

Comments?

[brentwalker]

Further his mom asked, would I score an error on the CF, if while trying to steal a batted HR which was barely clearing the fence, actually was touched by the fielders glove? The CF jumped and placed his glove beyond the fence but was not able to secure the catch and the ball continued off his glove.

I said HR, no error as it would have been a HR either way.

[CSThunderCoach]

I contend that you cannot NOT charge the CF with an error based on a diving play unless you feel he could have made the OUT without the dive.
Letting the ball bounce at his feet and it getting by would be a single with an error. A diving attempt for an out would be a scored as a double (in my opinion - I did not see the play.)

" Could another player have made the play with ordinary effort?"

In determining errors, you should never compare the talents of one player to another. Only charge an error if you feel that the player making the play could have made it with ordinary effort. You cannot charge an error to a player because he does not posses the same talent as another player on the team.

[danmcc]

Brentwalker, I agree with your scoring of single with E8, assuming the player could have been in position to catch the ball on the bounce without the ESPN dive.
HR scenario, IMO catching a ball over the fence out of play would be considered extraordinary effort. Even though the ball touches the glove the player couldn't get into position for an ordinary catch due to the fence.

[team mom]

In determining errors, you should never compare the talents of one player to another. Only charge an error if you feel that the player making the play could have made it with ordinary effort. You cannot charge an error to a player because he does not posses the same talent as another player on the team.

While I agree with this statement, I also believe you do not take into account the player's level of talent either. You should apply a consistent reasonable standard of play to all players. Otherwise, the less talented players won't get an error because the scorekeeper felt that while Johnny could have gotten that ball, Billy is not as good, so no error. The question should be, should a player in this league at this age be expected to make the play. If the answer is yes, then error, whether or not Billy has ever been able to make that catch yet.

As far as the play in question, it sounds as if the ball was not catchable with reasonable effort, so no error. The other OFs should have been backing the CF up in case the ball was not caught. No backup could also be blamed for the ball reaching the fence and extra bases. I did not see the play so am making a lot of assumptions, but I think I would say no error.

[OhioTex]

Want to change teams, move to Ohio.. everyone deserves a "team mom" with such a great grasp of the scorer role. as usual. Spot on TeamMom.

... You should apply a consistent reasonable standard of play to all players. ...the question should be, should a player in this league at this age be expected to make the play. If the answer is yes, then error, whether or not Billy has ever been able to make that catch yet.

As a coach I may be more or less aggressive or forgiving on errors , but what is so valuable is the consistent approach, day to day, player to player, game to game.. adjusted year to year by "league / Age".

you have learned well .

[FDT92]

FWIW...

p - No error is charged if a fly ball is misjudged and the fielder can't
recover in time to field it in good position.

q - No error is charged if the fielder drops a ball after running a
considerable distance to catch it, or if she fails in her attempt to catch
it while running at a high rate of speed.

r - No error is charged on a dropped line drive if the fielder moved
more than a few steps to catch it.

http://nfca.org.ismmedia.com/ISM2/Multi ... r/ATEC.pdf

[team mom]

You're too kind...

[PetroGuy]

Going by your description, I would go with no error on the CF and score it a double. Assigning an error in this case is giving an error on a mental decision, not a physical misplay.

[brentwalker]

So let me describe it another way. A fly ball is hit towards center field slightly to the right of the center fielder but essentially in front of him. Generally it would land as a single and the Center field would catch the ball on the first hop. In this case the CF decided he should make a diving attempt to catch the ball, rather than taking the safer route of catching it on the first hop. So as I understand it since the CF missed the ball after having attempting a diving catch and the ball rolls to the fence, you would give the batter a double/triple (depending on where he ended up) simply because the CF dove and missed the ball when clearly it should have been a single? I bet this will make your pitchers very happy in the way you score your ERA.

For me, it was recorded as a single (I SAID SINGLE) and all other base movement was accounted for by the missed attempt at fielding the ball. I.e. the movement of the batter-runner from first to second as an example was or should be IMO recorded as an error. Had the CF played the ball on the bounce, it would have been scored a single and no other runners would have advanced. I applaud the diving attempt but do not believe that just because he dove for the ball I should give the batter a double or triple.

How is it not an error when in the attempt of diving for the ball and missing it that the fielder was able to prevent runners from taking extra bases? Using the ordinary effort rule, the CF under ordinary effort would have caught the ball on the first bounce and no runners would have advanced.

10.12 Errors
An error is a statistic charged against a fielder whose action has assisted the team on offense, as set forth in this Rule 10.12.
(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;

In the rulebook under the section of it is not an error when, I do not see "if you dive for a ball and miss it, it is not an error". Where in the rulebook do you find rules that support this position?